And then this may be the marriage of another grandson: 1686, Pancras Claesz van der Velden X Lijsbetje Wittenoom

And the marriage of Cornelis Pancrasz: 1657 Cornelis Bancrasz van der Velde X Vrouwtie Dircx

Very good finds, Bart.  Reading between the lines, it looks like Pancraes Cornelis's origins remains an open question.  On another note, I found what I think is the burial entry for Geertje/Guurtje Claes, first wife of Jan Pancraes, dated 1 May 1665.  She would have been the mother of Geertje Jansdr who later married Cornelis Lourisz Croon in 1684 in Amsterdam.  According to their marriage record, Geertje Jansdr was 22 in 1684, which means she was born in about 1662. Again, like her parents, no baptism record has been discovered.

Geertje/Guurtje Claes burial entry:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QV-T71J?i=193&cc=2037985&cat=230843

No baptisms being found time and again makes me think "Doopsgezind" ("Mennonite"). In this description of the "Archief van de Doopsgezinde gemeente Alkmaar" it is evident that in the relevant period this denomination was quite present in Alkmaar, and in the decades before that even comparably the largest. "Het getal der doopsgezinden breidde zich uit en was groter dan dat der gereformeerden, die in 1558 in Alkmaar een kring hadden onder leiding van leerlingen van Cornelis Kooltuin, de priester die hier voor het eerst de protestantse leer had verkondigd."

See also: https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/details/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/path/2.3.3.1

Apparently, marriages are beginning 1668, and Baptisms ('adults') in 1692. That also means that - if my hypothesis is true about this family being Doopsgezind, that the marriage of Pancras Claesz van der Velden X Lijsbetje Wittenoom could possibly be found here as well. And this may very well be true since for the marriage record I found above it is stated: "Bijzonderheden: Stadstrouw". Leaving the possibility of 'Doopsgezind' (or Roman Catholic, or 'Remonstrants' etc.) wide open.

But: I am struggeling with the way these records and books are organized. Have not found the systematics yet.

Another place that may yield information: Inventaris van het archief van de Doopsgezinde gemeente Alkmaar, 1452-1986

Bart:  You are one brilliant person.  Look what I found, baptism entry for 18 May 1662:

https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/2.4.2.1.1/start/20/limit/10/highlight/3

the regional archive has a (non-digitised) membership list of the Remonstrant Brotherhood from 1633 :

Hmm, Remonstranten. Steve, good find as well, and you are giving me a little bit too much credit. My own forebears (direct male line) were Remonstrants until a little over 100 years ago. So I've been down the same road a couple of times before. Lets call this 'experience'.

Hi Bart:

Decided to do a reconstruction of the family of Jan Pancraes and Geertje Claes:

So far, baptisms of known children of Jan and Geertje.  Note:  Since this couple was married in 1649 (https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.006/6.3.1/start/40/limit/10/highlight/4), there may be other children between 1649 and 1654:

Burial record for kint van Jan Bancraesz (20 July 1650):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99QV-TQB8?i=119&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Burial record for kint van Jan Bancraesz (24 April 1652):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QV-TQKP?i=125&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Bancraes/Pancraes Jans - Baptism (27 April 1654):
https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/2.4.2.1.1/start/0/limit/10/highlight/8

Burial (5 June 1654):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99QV-TQ15?i=137&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Bancraes - Baptism (28 July 1655):
https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/2.4.2.1.1/start/0/limit/10/highlight/10

Burial (3 August 1655):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89QV-T74S?i=142&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Marritie - Baptism (10 September 1656):
https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/2.4.2.1.1/start/10/limit/10/highlight/2

Maaritie marries Jan Dircx Cloot, (marriage intention 5 April 1676):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99QV-13RG?i=358&cc=2037985&cat=230419

Bankeras/Pancraes and Guertje - Baptism (18 May 1662):
https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/2.4.2.1.1/start/20/limit/10/highlight/3

Burial (30 May 1662):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QV-TW9M?i=182&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Geertje Jans - Baptism (19 January 1665):
https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.001/2.4.2.1.1/start/20/limit/10/highlight/8

Burial (4 February 1665):
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89QV-TWKJ?i=192&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Geertje Jansdr and Cornelis Lourisz Croon: Marriage intention - Amsterdam (26 August 1684):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89QV-5H8S?i=331&cc=2037985&cat=240335

Geertje deposes her age as 22 in 1684, which means she was born in 1662. So, this lines up with the baptismal entry for her on 18 May 1662.  Her brother must have been the one who passed away and was buried on 30 May 1662.  Unclear as to why the couple would name another daughter by the same name in 1665 and she dies several weeks later!  Odd.

Guertje Klaas - Burial (1 May 1665):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QV-T71J?i=193&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Jan Pancraes remarries 7 March 1666 to Grietje Cornelis Ancker:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9QV-1QWF?i=228&cc=2037985&cat=230419

Jan Pancraes - Burial (22 August 1671):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89QV-TNYC?i=27&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Datering: 1677.06.26

Bron:RAA, Arch. RK Wees- en Armenhuis nr.86 (!?? = 108?) / VZI 1 reg.414

Schuldbrief van f440 te betalen in 3 termijnen, wegens de koop van een lijnbaan binnen Alkmaar aan de WZ Binnenbanen,
Belend:
zuid Symon Heertjes = Kad.A , 
noord Cornelis Baes = Kad.A , 
west de Baansloot , 
door Cornelis Coomans gekocht van de kinderen en erfg. van Jan Pancrasz zeylemaker c.s. 

Found two more items:

Orphan records involving Guuertje and Marritje, daughters of Jan Pancraesz and Geertje Claes, dated 6 February 1668.   Guuertje was aged 6 and Marritje was 11 1/2.  This means Guuertje was born about 1662 and Marritje was born about 1656.  These match the baptisms of these two surviving children:

https://www.regionaalarchiefalkmaar.nl/collecties/archieven/archieven-2/scans/NL-AmrRAA-10.3.007/2.1.1.13/start/260/limit/10/highlight/5

Pancraes and Jannetjen, children of Claes Pancraes and Trintje Andries (Jan Pancraes styled as "oom," on 6 August 1670):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-N3ZZ-Y5VL?i=37&cat=3465645

I didn't follow this topic (not my area after all ;-) so I won't have anything content-related to add. But I saw that Bart was puzzled by the phrases 'prelegaat' and 'geprelegateerd'. His interpretation is not quite spot-on.

Een prelegaat is een legaat dat moet worden uitgekeerd aan een erfgenaam als bevoordeling boven anderen in dezelfde graad. Dat kan het beste met een (vaak voorkomend) voorbeeld worden uitgelegd:
Zeg, een echtpaar heeft 5 kinderen, en een van hen, Marietje, heeft jaren in het huishouden van haar ouders gewerkt en voor ze gezorgd. Haar ouders bespreken haar daarom een prelegaat van 100 gld. Vervolgens moet de rest van de nalatenschap worden gedeeld door de 5 kinderen. Marietje wordt dus bevoordeeld t.a.v. de anderen.

Een legaat in hel algemeen kan worden besproken voor wie dan ook: de buurvrouw, de pastoor, de armen van een parochie, een neefje van wie de testateur peetoom is. Een prelegaat is dus ook een legaat, maar een legaat is niet altijd een prelegaat. 

From earlier this year I had a not of the last will of Jan Bancraesz and Guurtge Claes < scan 331> from 09-10-1652. Don't know if it has been discussed yet.

Regards, Frans

Frans,

Tnx for correcting my interpretation of 'geprelegateerd'. That does certainly have it's inplications for the further interpretation of that document. Since I have left the basic question open (A) or (B) - see above - with the correction of Frans I am now leaning more towards (B) where Pancras Cornelisz is the grandson of the person this topic was started about by Steve.

But still, I would very much be interested in a more knowledgable interpretation of the whole document, so the proper family relations can be determined, en not guessed, as I am more or less doing.

Bart

I had a look at that will and (not bothered by any other knowledge about the family so let's say a fresh view) I don't see much difficulties. 
... gemaect ende aen haer kinderen geprelegateert heeft, t'geene volcht: 
Eerst aen Pancras Cornelisz de soon van Cornelis Pancrasz, een dubbelde roos nobel (normally called 'rozennobel'), aen Jan Pancrasz een gouden keijsers penning ende een silveren keijsers penning, aen Claes Pancrasz een gouden (munt?) een silveren keijsers penning ende Cornelis Pancrasz een bijbel

What you must keep in mind (and what should be clearer now with the interpretation of prelegaat) is that the will is not intended to divide her possessions - not *all* her possessions. Just some things that she wants her children to have. (And one grandchild, no doubt as you already mentioned, because he was named after her late husband).
So, after these prelegaten, all that remains will be divided between her sons - it is not needed to name that explicitely  that's just following normal erfrecht.
But she does it anyway in the next will from 02-07-1655: Jan and Claes Pancrasz, her two sons, and the children of Cornelis Pancrasz that he already has or will get. Which means Cornelis gets passed by (in the ownership, he gets the lijftocht). 

Regards, Frans

Hi Frans:

Thanks for all the clarifications.  All make sense to me.  Also, thanks for posting the will of Jan Bancraesz and Guurtge Claes from 9 October 1652. I am looking it over.

Regards, Steve 

Hi Frans:

Thanks for all the clarifications.  All make sense to me.  Also, thanks for posting the mutual testament.

UPDATE (6 September 2022):

Geert Ouweneel kindly transcribed the mutual testament as follows:

https://watstaatdaer.nl/forum/mutual-testament-jan-bancraesz-and-guurtge-claes-09-10-1652

Geert Ouweneel zei op 06 september 2022 om 18:55

Testament Jan Bancraesz ende Guurtge Claes
In den naem des Heeren, Amen. Bij den inhouden
van dese tegenwoordige openbare instrumente
sij een ygelijck kennelijck ende openbaer hoe dat in den
jare na de de geboorte ons Heeren ende Salichmaker Jesu
Christy 16 hondert twee en vijftich opten 9 dach der
maent October voor mij Baen Jansz,
Heerencarspel, openbaer notaris etc. ende de getuygen
naergenompt, gecompareert sijn d' eersame Jan Bancraesz,
seylmaker ende Guurtgen Claes, echte man ende
vrou, beyde wonende binnen deser stede, gaende, staende,
kloeck ende gesont van lichamen, haerluyder sinnen ende
verstant wel gebruyckende, soo ons van buyten scheen
ende bleeck, dewelcke, aenmerckende des menschen
levents cortheyt, de sekerheyt des doots ende de onsekere
ure vandien, verclaerden van meeninge te sijn van haerludyer
tijtelijcke goederen te disponeeren voor ende aleer
hunluyden den doot de wech ondergingh, mits welken
sij uyt haer eygen vrijen wille ende wel bedachten
gemoede sonder inductie persuasie ofte misleydinnge
van yemant, soo sij luyden verclaerden hebben gemaeckt ende
gedaen haer testament ende laeste wille in
manieren hiernaer verclaert, eerstelijck bevelen
haerludyer sielen, wanneer die uyt haer verganckelijcke
lichaem getogen sullen sijn in de grondeloose
ende onbegrijpelijcke bermherticheyt Godts ende haer lichamen
de Christelijcke begravinge, comende voorts
ter dispositie heeft eerst de voorsz. Jan
Bencraetsz gemaeckt, besproken ende gelegateert
aen ende ten behoeve van Claes Bancraesz, sijn broeder,
indien hij sonder kint oiff kinderen compt te overlijden,
de somme van vijffhondert gulden ende
alle sijn testateurs wollen clederen
ende voorn. Guurtge Claes heeft gemaeckt ende
gelegateert sulcx sij doet bij desen, de
kinderen van haer broeder Jan Claesz, alle
haer wolle clederen, geen uytgesondert, tot
haer lijf behorende, met alle haer huyven, halfgens
ende neusdoeken, wijders hebben sij testateuren /
den een den anderen gemaekt, besprooken
ende gelegateert den eygendomme van alle
den inboel, huysraet, linnen en wollen, silver en
gout, ten overlijden van de eerststervende
als vooren in den boedel sijnde ende soo Jan Bancraesz
langstlevende blijft, sal d'selve daerenboven noch
genieten vooruyt de somme van vijff hondert
gulden, ende
in de verdere goederen bij hun naer te laten
hebben sij geinstitueert ende genomineert
elcx sijne erfgenamen ab intesato, waeronder
de voorsz. Jan Bancraesz verstaet bysonderlijck
sijn moeder Martige Jans te institueren sulcx dat
d'selve goederen sullen werden gedeylt in twee
deelen aen de sijde van Jan Bancraesz
ende d'andere helft aen de sijde van Guurtge
Claesz sulcx dat naer lantrecht behoort, besonderlijck
dat Claes Bancraesz wert gelegateert uyt de helft van
Jan Bancraesz de somme van vijff hondert gulden,
welverstaende dat de langstlevende
daervan sal hebben de ususfruckt alsmeede van
alle de andere goederen ende lijfftocht
sijn off haer leven langh geduyrende, met
macht omme uyt hoogen noot de capitalen
meede te mogen verteeren, alle t'welcke voorsz.
staet verclaerden sij te wesen haerluyder testament
ende laeste wille, begerende dat t'selve naer haer
doot sal stadtgrijpen ende effect sorteren, t'sij
alsulcx codicil, gifte uyt saecke des doots
off onder de levenden, off soo yemant laeste
wille best naer rechten ende equiteyt sal
cunnen bestaen ende valideren, niettegenstaende
etc. Aldus gedaen ende gepasseert binnen
Alcmaer ten comptoire mijns notaris, present
Aris Willemsz van der Minde ende Aerien
Jacobsz Minnen als getuygen etc.
Jan Banckerisz, seylmaker
Guerten Claes
Aris Willemsen
Aderyaen Jacopse Mynne

Den 12en September (1649)
Jan Bancrasz, zeylmaecker,
jongman, wonende op Luttick Outdorp
ende
Guurtie Claes, jongedochter de dochter
van Claes Dircxsz, scoenmaker, wonende
in de Hoffstraet

Getrouwt voor de heeren burge-
meesteren den 26 September

In an attempt to further pinpoint the origins of Pancraes Cornelisz Seijlemaker, these were the only entries I turned up on the family:

Cornelis, son of Pancraes Cornelisz Dopen (4 March 1620):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L9QV-TJK3?i=19&wc=SM9Q-YWB%3A1293193204%2C382023201%2C383233801&cc=2037985

Kint van Pancraes Seijlemaker Burial (25 November 1628):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99QV-T7Q7?i=61&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Kint van Bancraes Seijlemaker Burial (17 October 1630):

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89QV-T7C7?i=66&cc=2037985&cat=230843

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find a marriage entry for Pancraes Cornelisz to Martige Jans, which makes me speculate that perhaps the family was possibly not originally from Alkmaar.  That is where I am at with this family.

Hi Steve, remember the house located (Ver)Dronkenoord? I quote what I found and speculated earlier:

"=============================================================================================

Kadastraal perceelnummer
Kad.B622
Kad.B622

Datering:1671.04.30

Bron:RAA, ORA 161 fol.53 nr.52 / onderzoek J.W.Balder

Transport van huis en erf ZZ Verdronkenoord,
Belend:
oost Thijs Cornelisz timmerman = Kad.B623, 
west wed. Claas Pancras = Kad.B621

, door Cornelis Dircx Soyers aan Lieve Cornelisz Clocq; prijs f- <===(!)
Titel:1650.05.05

BLOK74-n

[ Btw: Claas must have died before april 1671.]

=============================================================================================

Kadastraal perceelnummer
Kad.B621
Kad.B621

Datering:1628.10.31

Bron:RAA, SA 1893, Platinggeld

Dronckenoort ZZ nr.39 huis met osendroppen
Eigenaar:Bancraes Cornelisz

Bewoner:] breed[16v 1d alkm. maat

Bedrag:30.11

BLOK74-n

[It looks like the house where Pancraes Cornelis lived in 1628 was inherited by his son Claas since the widow of Claes Pancraes is living there in 1671 - see previous entry]

=============================================================================================

=> I went again looking for "Banc*" instead of "Panc*":

=============================================================================================

Kadastraal perceelnummer
Kad.B621
Kad.B621

Datering:1700.01.28

Bron:RAA, Coll. Aanwinsten 831 = ORA 165 fol.243v nr.29

(Grosse op perkament van) Transport van huis en erf ZZ Dronkenoord gen.
PN:De Vijffhoek

,
Belend:oost de kinderen van Lieve Clok = Kad.B622, <===(so it is the same house for sure!)
west Lysbeth 't groenwijff = Kad.B620

, staand op eigen muren met twee loden goten en een eigen watergang, door Jan Pietersz Ningh (= Nijn?) als man van Lysbeth Cornelis Wittenoom, eerder wed. Bancras Claesz aan Maarten Crom; reeds betaald met f-

===>>> Titel:1581.01.16 (NB. moet zijn 1587.01.15) verkoop aan *** Cornelis Bancrasz *** (voorzaat van Bancras Claesz) <<<===

BLOK74-n

=============================================================================================

So: to me it looks like the house on Verdronkenoord ZZ:

1628 Bancraes Cornelisz
1671 wed. Claas Pancras (so I guessed Claas inherited from his father)
1700 eerder wed. Bancras Claesz (So I now guess again inherited to Claas' son Bancras)

And, what is even more evidence: remember the marriage of the same grandson in 1686, Pancras Claesz van der Velden X Lijsbetje Wittenoom

But then, 1581 / 1587 verkoop aan Cornelis Bancrasz (voorzaat van Bancras Claesz)

It looks to me that this Cornelis Bancras must be the father of Pancraes Cornelisz. He bought the house in 1581/1587

Hence

1587 Cornelis Bancrasz bought the house
1628 Bancraes Cornelisz (I guess he must have inherited from his father Cornelis)
1671 wed. Claas Pancras (so I guess Claas inherited from his father Pancraes)
1700 eerder wed. Bancras Claesz (again inherited, Pancras Claesz van der Velde's widow Lijsbeth Wittenoom remarried Jan Pietersz Ningh, and he sold to Maarten Crom.

The house looks to have been in the family for 113 years, and owned by 4 generations. The word "voorzaat" means "ancestor". Here actually great grandfather, but that is my 'interpretation' based on the sequence above.

Now, I guess original documents must be present in the RAA (Regionaal Archief Alkmaar) about Cornelis Bancrasz buying the house. Hopefully somebody can point you in the right direction since I am not familiar with that archive. But as to "[...] it looks like Pancraes Cornelis's origins remains an open question." and "perhaps the family was possibly not originally from Alkmaar." I may have provided some answers, but I do hereby invite fellow forum members to question and test the above. Peer review now must take place.

Found the underpinning documents:

Weeskamer Alkmaar 1588:

Complicated, needs proper investigation. His deceased wife "overleden huisvrouw" is named "Maritgen Thoenisdr". He is named "Cornelis Pancraesz Schipper onse mede poorter" No confirmation found yet that this is indeed the same person.

Looks to me that this is about making sure that Maritgen Thoenisdr's voorkinderen are being treated in a fair way since their mother has passed. So kind of 'boedelscheiding?' These children are "Pieter, Lijsbeth en Pieter Hijnedrix kinderen" which leads to the conclusion that Maritgen Thoenisdr was married to a 'Heijndrik' (Hijnedrik) before being married to Cornelis Pancrasz.

As an 'assurance' Cornelis "stellende daer voiren ten spetialen hypoteecke ende onderpande sijne camer met haer erff staende ende leggende binnen deser stede aende zuijdt zijde van Dronckenoirdt belent met Ans[?] Heijndricxz Vlijsho??? [etc.]"

So it looks like indeed this is the same Cornelis Pancraesz because of the property "aende zuijdt zijde van Dronckenoirdt". Funny thing is that it is called "camer met haer erff" and not a house.

Possibly somebody is willing and can find the time to make a full transcription? I have not seen references to Cornelis' own children but may have overlooked.....?