Concerning Geertgen Dircksdr, I think I may have found a clue about her family:

Protocollen van opdrachten, hypothecatiën enz., 1590-1809, inventarisnummer 65, blad 57v:

Bron: Oud Rechterlijke registerSoort registratie: Oud Rechterlijke Akten(Akte)datum: 11-11-1591 Plaats: Alkemade
Bijzonderheden:
De weduwe en kinderen van Lenert Jan Pieter Hobbasz, genaamd Geertgen Dircksdr als weduwe met Jan Dircksz de Noochl als broer en voogd ter ene en Jan Lenertsz en Bastian Lenertsz, Dirck Lenertsz en Engel IJsbrantsz, getrouwd met Aeltgen Lenertsdr, Huijbert Jacopsz als voogd van de drie onmondige kinderen, genaamd Huijbert Lenertsz, Aeltgen Lenertsdr en Maritgen Lenertsdr, ter andere zijde, delen de nalatenschap. Geertgen Dircksdr als weduwe komt toe een huis, erf met 2 hond land, belend ten oosten Cornelis Woutersz, ten zuiden Antonis Huijgensz en erfgenamen van Louris Joestensz, ten westen de Veendijk, ten noorden de kinderen en erfgenamen van Daem Jansz; nog 5« morgen land, belend ten oosten de Braassemermeer en de oude Pieter Pietesz, ten zuiden Bastiaen en Dirck Lenertsz, ten westen Jaepgen Cornsz en Willem Cornsz en Antonis Huijgensz, ten noorden Cornelis Woutersz, belast met een rente 13 gulden 11 stuivers jaarlijks, geheel ten laste van Geertgen Dircksdr. De weduwe neemt op zich haar onmondige kinderen te onderhouden en op te voeden tot de leeftijd van 20 jaar. Jan Lenertsz, als oudste zoon verkrijgt, mede door uitkoop van Engel IJsbrantsz en de drie kinderen, 4 morgen land te Roelofarendsveen, belend ten oosten, zuiden en westen de Braassemermeer, ten noorden Bastiaen Lenertsz en Dirck Lenertsz met hun erfdeel, belast met een schuldbrief op Huijbrecht Jansz Boetgen, groot 10 gulden 14 stuivers jaarlijks. Bastiaen Lenertsz en Dirck Lenertsz zijn samen toebedeeld met 1« morgen land te Alkemade, belend ten oosten de Braassemermeer, ten zuiden Jan Lenertsz, ten westen de schuldenijs schenen (?) van Huijbert Jansz Boetgen en Lijsbet Cornelisdr, ten noorden de moeder (?), belast met jaarlijkse rente 4 gulden 6 stuivers. Jan Lenertsz, de oudste zoon, bekent nog schuldig te zijn aan Engel IJsbrantsz, zijn zwager, aan de drie jonge kinderen, ieder een bedrag van 100 gulden, wegens de verkoop van hun vaderlijk erfdeel.

Protocollen van opdrachten, hypothecatiën enz., 1590-1809, inventarisnummer 65, blad 68:

Bron: Oud Rechterlijke registerSoort registratie: Oud Rechterlijke Akten(Akte)datum: 16-03-1592 Plaats: Alkemade
Bijzonderheden:
jan Lourisz verkoopt aan Pieter Lourisz, zijn broer, een huis berg en aangelegen land, verongeld voor 5 morgen aan de Rijpwetering, belend ten oosten de Rijpwetering, ten zuiden Willem Corsz en de erfgenamen van Jan Dircksz, ten westen mr. Jan van Banchem, raadsheer in ?s-Gravenhage, ten noorden jonge Jan Jansz.

**The point being made here is Geertgen Dircksdr may have had a brother named Jan.  I am unsure about the de Noochl reference to Jan Dircksz.

Geertgen Dircksdr als weduwe met Jan Dircksz de Noochl als broer

Jan Dircksz de Voocht. At this moment i'm doing a little research in the court records of Esselijckerwoude and the surname 'de Voocht' is quite common there

I don't know what happened to the lands owned by Geertgen Dircks in 56/57v. It would be great evidence i'f they were owned by Willem Corsz afterwards, but unfortunately this part of Roelofarendsveen is horrible to reconstruct (it appears to me that many acts are missing). I'll have another look at it later this week.

Protocollen van opdrachten, hypothecatiën enz., 1590-1809, inventarisnummer 65, blad 68:

Bron: Oud Rechterlijke registerSoort registratie: Oud Rechterlijke Akten(Akte)datum: 16-03-1592 Plaats: Alkemade
Bijzonderheden:
jan Lourisz verkoopt aan Pieter Lourisz, zijn broer, een huis berg en aangelegen land, verongeld voor 5 morgen aan de Rijpwetering, belend ten oosten de Rijpwetering, ten zuiden Willem Corsz en de erfgenamen van Jan Dircksz, ten westen mr. Jan van Banchem, raadsheer in ?s-Gravenhage, ten noorden jonge Jan Jansz.

The Jan Dircksz mentioned in 65/68 is Jan Dircksz Deijserman, i think it's just coincidence

I think there's a major flaw in your reasoning Steve. Geertgen Dircxsdr, weduwe van Lenert Jansz, was still alive at 23-01-1596 (RA Alkemade 65/219v).
While on the other hand Geertgen Dircksdr, the mother of Lenaertgen Cornelisdr, was alive at 24-02-1577 but dead by 17-05-1579 (Lenaertgen Cornelisdochter, hulde door Alewijn Andriesz., bij dode van haar moeder Gheertruydt Dircksdochter). 
So they're different Geertgen Dircksdochters, and to confuse you more there was a Geerte Dircksdr who married Theunis Ariensz/Arris in 1578 and who from 1583 on is mentioned as a widow in ONA Leiden and RA Alkemade.
And ONA Ldn 18-01-1578 in Alkemade Geerte Dircxsdr. weduwe Sijmon Willemsz, yet another one.

regards, Frans

For the husband of Geertgen Dircksdr (+ 1579) I think you should consider this (leenkamer Wateringen, leen 57 in Alkemade)

20-4-1438: Dirck Andriesz. na opdracht uit eigen.
..-.-14..: Andries Dircxz., vermeld in 1473 (r.r. 306, bijlage fol. 11).
..-.-1...: Dirck Andriesz.
16-2-1541: Cornelis Dirck Andriesz.
4-12-1565: Job Cornelisz. bij dode van zijn vader Cornelis Dirck Andriesz.
29-1-1630: Mathijs Adriaensz. te Alckemade krijgt het leen ten vrij eigen, nadat het door hem in 1617 als allodiaal gekocht was van de weduwe van Arent Adriaensz., in ruil voor een rente van 4 gulden per jaar op het complex verzekerd ten behoeve van de leenheer.

There we have a Job Cornelisz, son of Cornelis Dircksz, grandson of Dirck Andriesz. Leentgen/Lenaertge Cornelisdr had a brother Job Cornelisz. I think we may have the Deijserman family here.

You can also find the in the Leeuwenhorst pachten in Alkemade. There Dirck Andriesz has sons Cornelis and Jan Dircksz, with a mother Liesbeth. 

regards, Frans

@Frans: Thank you for correcting the error of my ways in this instance.  You've sealed the case as far as the parentage of Leentgen/Lenaertge Cornelisdr is concerned. My old theories are in the trash can.  Ha-ha at my expense.  

The inevitable question: Where would I find the leenkamer Wateringen, leen 57 in Alkemade on the Nationaal archief site?  I noticed a reference to (r.r. 306, bijlage fol. 11).

Thanks again, Frans.

Regards, Steve

Inevitable indeed. There's always a clue in the intro: De hier volgende gegevens zijn ontleend aan het archief van de Nassause Domeinraad, inv.nr. 6525, fol. 324-427. That's NA 1.08.11. Only also inevitable is that there has been a renumbering because 6525 doesn't make sense.

Deel 6, IX Westland, E  Leenzaken should do it. There we have 2 leenkamers: 1 Polanen en Monster, and 2 Naaldwijk; You only have to figure out which one you need. For the first one there is an on-line index available. Can't find Alkemade in there. For Naaldwijk see: 

7380-7384 Repertoria op de lenen van Naaldwijk, 14e eeuw -1773. 5 delen
Onder afzonderlijke capita zijn hierin opgenomen: Made, Oud-Teilingen, Polanen en Wateringen.

7381 deel II, folio 165-437 (CLXV - CCCCXXXVII) 14e eeuw - 1773, 14e eeuw - 1773,
Folio 214-247, 312-322,   321-427   gedrukt in Ons Voorgeslacht, 21e jrg. 572-592, 537-544 en 481-537.

Bingo!

There's another one you should look into: REPERTORIUM OP DE LENEN VAN DE HOFSTEDE WARMOND,
1316-1799, leen 12, 25, 25A, 25B, 26, 34, 35, 26. All with Aris Dirksz etc
I think we have encountered this leenkamer before. Should be in Huisarchief Warmond in ELO 

regards, Frans
 

@Frans:

Thanks as always!

Regards, Steve

I've extended the familytree of the Cleijn family in my earlier message from 22 mei 2023 21:09

Regards, Ramon

Hi Steve and Ramon

Somewhere in this topic Willem Corssen x Leentgen Cornelisdr make an appearance. For Leentgen ancestors has been found but not for Willem. In fact, I can hardly find any Cors, Corsz or Corsdr among the citizens fo Alkemade in the 17th century - apart from Willem and his presumed sister Jaepgen , who was married to Anthonis Willemsz.

I found a Cors Jacobsz who lived in Rijpwetering, but I doubt if he had any children. Looking form amother angle Willem Corssen had 9 children. One name that sticks out for me is Swaentgen. You see it it now and then, but it's not a very common name. And of course, there must have been a reason for Willem and Leentgen to name their daughter Swaentgen.

In the 10e penningkohier of 1558 (that year is on the 1st page) we find, under Roelofarendsveen, these lines:
Lenaert Willemsz 4h eijgen
Antonis Willemsz sijn huijsinge (etc) 5m 4½h eijgen (and 3m hired from Wouter Pietersz)
Swaentgen Willem Claesz wede haer bruijkwaer huijsinge  (etc)  6m 1½h eijgen

These three are also in the Morgenboeken of 1564 and 1568, but in the next one of 1580 they're gone. Instead, Willem Corssen makes his first appearance with 4½m 1½h 25r, and a Marijtgen Willemsdr with 2½h and, a bit further on, Jaepgen Corssen with 7m 3h. That figures, Anthonis Joosten must have died by then. (By the way, both Willem and Jaepgen have a lot more land in 1592).

This widow Swaentgen must be a prime suspect as the namesake for Swaentgen Willemsdr. But how exactly? Was she Willems mother, aunt or grandmother? 
 

If she was his mother, then she must have been married to a Cors, and then for a relatively short time, to Willem Claesz. There is a Willem Claesz in 1544 with 12m 4h.

If she was his grandmother, then there must have been an intermediate Cors Willemsz, who didn't make it to any morgenboek or kohier.

Just my initial thoughts.  I welcome yours.   

Note also that in RA Alkemade on 20-06-1605, Zwaentgen de weduwe van Willem Claesz, is listed.  I doubt if that is correct as she disappeared from the Morgenboeken years before that. Possibly a line copied form an earlier deed. Note also that Anthonis Willemsz was apparently already living on his own (with Jaepgen? ) in 1558. Which makes 1580 for Willem Corssen rather late. 
 

Regards, Frans

Hi Frans:

First, once again, very keen eye on the Swaentgen detail. As you may recall, I posted an inquiry to translate certain entries involving Willem Corssen.  I think the earliest entry for possibly him was 1580 (see link below). At the time, I thought he might have been a candidate as a son of Cornelis Dammas.  But as you have often reminded me, to be cautious about the Cors and Cornelis.

https://watstaatdaer.nl/forum/transcription-help-needed-multiple-morgenboek-entries-alkemade-roelofarendveen

Unsure how this will help answer the question but for what it's worth, Swaentgen sounds likes a better candidate for Willem's mother. Geertgen. Wasn't that the name of Leentgen Cornelisdr's mother (see previous post of 14 jun 2023)?

Just my initial thoughts. Curious to learn more about the background and origins (if possible) on Swaentgen Willem Claesz wede.

Regards for now,

Steve

Steve & Frans, 

de reference made to Zwaentgen Willem Claesz. wed in RA Alkemade 67/36v dd 20-06-1605 is from an older act dated 07-06-1577. She is the north neighbour of the IJsbrand Woutersz. from the 07-06-1577 act. It is possible that a part of the 7 morgen farm which serves as security for the 07-06-1577 act was in fact loan # 32 from the Huis van Warmond dd 09-11-1567 which was owned by IJsbrand Woutersz - here, the northern neighbour is 'Swaentgen Gerrits wed. Willem Claesz.' (note: from the transcription listed on onsvoorgeslacht.nl, i haven't seen the original sources yet). 

From 1577 to 1621 this loan is owned by Engel IJsbrandsz a son of IJsbrand Woutersz.. On 07-05-1644 the loan goes from the heirs of Engel IJsbrandsz to Claes Leendertsz Spruijtwater - the northern neighbour is now Jan Willem Corsz. c.s.

So it's very likely that one of Willem Corsz sons owned some land earlier owned by this Swaentgen Willem Claesz wed

link to the loan: https://www.onsvoorgeslacht.nl/wp-content/plugins/typify-databank/download.php?item_id=4506

Thanks Ramon, useful additional info. 

A scan of Warmond loan #32 you may find here <LINK>  For 09-05-1563 the noordbelending indeed reads Swaentgen Gherrits dr weduwe van Willem Claes z. So we have her patronym now, luckily not a (in this case) confusing one like Willems or Corssen
Also interesting are the witnesses that were present: Martijn Florijs z (he was a leenman van Warmond) and an ancestor of mine) and Pieter Pietersz. I wonder if that's the one from Ofwegen.

There's more: on the same page below right  09-11-1567 aen die noortsijde Swaentgen Gherritsdr 
and left 01-12-1534 an die noert zijde Willem Claesz 
on f.38  07-09-1531 an die noert zijde Willem Claesz
on f.37 27-09-1498 an die noert zijde Claesgen Jan Bezudens wedue
on f.34  02-11-1577 aen die noortsijde d'erffgenamen van Swaentgen Gerritsdr in haer leeven weduwe van Willem Claesz.  Here Willem Joppen (another one of Steve's ancestors) took the oath for Engel IJsbrantsz

Regards, Frans

Hi Frans:

You raised the possibility that Pieter Pietersz who witnessed the transaction 09-05-1563 could be the one from Ofwegen.  The time period "fits" as you mentioned in your post of 24 mei 2023 based on the following item:

ONA Ldn 6/372 dd 21-07-1577: Verklaring tvv Neeltgen Banendr,  Pieter Pietersz weduwe wonende tot Ofwegen in het ambacht van Jacobswoude.

We're talking roughly a 14 year difference between the two mentions for a Pieter Pietersz, so it's very possible we're talking about the same guy.

Regards,

Steve 
 

Hi Steve

Yes, I tend to agree with you on that.  My only concern (if you can call it that) is that the oath was usually taekn before two leenmannen, and whille Maerten Florisz was, I have no record of our Pieter Pieterszs as a leenman. But then, there is no one at all called that as a leenman of Warmond in that period.
I think there are earlier mentions of Pieter Pietersz, for instance MB 1564 where he uses land of Vranck Banenz

Talking about Pieter Pietersz, who was the one married to Neeltgen Banendr, I came across an entry in the HvH archives (edit: not HvH but OAR)  from 23-08-1575, where Vranck Banensz was nominated curator of the estate of the late Cornelis Claes Sijmonsz and Neeltgen Banendr. 

That's a bit disconcerting but I think that may have been an older Neeltgen Banendr who was married Cornelis Claesz Sijmonszz, who is listed in the 10e penning of Esselijkerwoude in 1553. The other possibility would be that Neeltgen Banendr, wife of Pieter Pietersz, was first married to Cornelis

regards, Frans

Hi Frans and Ramon:

Today, I found the following reference to a Willem Corssen.  Unsure if this is the same person that has been a topic of discussion here:

REPERTORIUM OP DE LENEN VAN DE HOFSTEDE WARMOND, 1316-1799:

BIJLAGE
165. 3 morgen land in Alkemade op Rijpwetering, noord: de leenman met Jan Gerardsz. Cuyper, oost: Wilem Corssen, zuid: erven Laurens Pietersz., west: de Rijpwetering.

1-4-1589: Alewijn Andriesz. te Rijpwetering in Alkemade verheft bij dode van Hendrik Gerardsz., zijn schoonvader, omdat hij niet weet van welke leenheer het leen roert: de heer van Warmond verklaart daarop, dat het volgens zijn register niet van hem roert, 570 fol. 397. 

Original deed:

https://www.erfgoedleiden.nl/collecties/archieven/archievenoverzicht/scans/0512/15.3.2.1/start/400/limit/10/highlight/4

Hi Steve,

I think it is the same Willem Corsz

In the Poelgeest-loan of 17-05-1579 mentioned earlier in this topic - which was between Kerksloot and Nieuwesloot directly east from the Rijpwetering - Alewijn Andriesz is the western 'belender' so that fits. 

regards, Ramon

Hello Steve,

This is a reaction to your first post in May 2023. I know that all the Sassenheim experts have already responded to this thread and have not noticed this, so it may be of no value. But nevertheless here is my two cents worth:

In the deed #26, dated 10-04-1661 both Jan Pietersz. and the husband of Annetje Pietersdr. are selling property they apparently both own. Is it then not likely the Jan Pietersz. is a brother of either Annetje Pietersdr., or her first husband Huybert Pieterszn.? With the current data it is not to be established which case is true, but it may nevertheless be a clue.

Michaël

Hi Ramon:

Thanks.  I appreciate the feedback.  As Frans has repeatedly reminded me, I must be very careful not to fall into the trap of confusing Willem Corssen with Willem Corneliszn.  That distinction has not been lost on me, which was why I posted the tidbit of information to confirm or refute if the person was my ancestor.

Regards,

Steve

Hi Michaël:

Yes, both Jan Pietersz. and the husband of Annetje Pietersdr.(Huybert Pieterszn) is quite relevant.  Thank you very much for finding this record.  I appreciate your taking the time to find it.

Regards,

Steve

Could this possibly be the father of Willem Corssen?  This gentleman was listed in 1547 (Scan 11 - right side, item 4, under "Reijnsaeterwoude" https://www.nationaalarchief.nl/onderzoeken/archief/3.01.27.02/invnr/410/file/NL-HaNA_3.01.27.02_410_0011?eadID=3.01.27.02&unitID=410&query=

If I am incorrect, that's fine.  But thought I should post it for feedback.

Regards,

Steve